Rituals and Resonance: Exploring the Tapestry of Haitian Vodou

ep68-Kyrah Malika Daniels

[00:00:00] Yonjou lwa ginen waptounen. Puyo vini ne tye pe ya me te diabyo deyo pou pep voyan kapab rebati lakay. Se mesaj sa ak te genan chanteyo. Se mesaj sa ak te genan koutembo yo. Se mesaj sa ki fe tembo pa jom suspon bat. Rive sou mwen! Mey non! Rive sou mwen! Mey non! Racine bazil! Jil pep! Nan deman bre me dale!

Ta zanjou regleman pou met nan bitasyon mwen, ne gyo son di rezon mwen. Bi den lo, nan deman brem talen. Ta zanjou regleman pou met nan bitasyon mwen, ne gyo son di rezon mwen. Dantô te laê[00:01:00]

Larent te la ve mwen Nè gyo son de rizon mwen Nã graximê Are there enough of scholars of your generation in the English -speaking world? You wish there were more. We need more, don’t we? We do. We do. We do need more. Let’s ask for a… We do need more, and we especially need more Haitian scholars of Vodou. And, you know, I believe that everybody can study anything as long as they do it with respect and integrity.

And I believe that very firmly. And we need to be training more Black scholars of Vodou and more Haitian scholars of Vodou because we’re underrepresented. And because I do think that there is something unique that we can bring to the table as a group. You know, those who are coming from the heritage, not only with regards to language, because language is a major component of understanding Vodou and understanding religious heritage, [00:02:00] but also because there are access points that are different for Haitian scholars, you know, and that’s really significant too.

et reconnaissant les moyens dans lesquels, comme vous savez, quand je fais et conduis de l avec différentes communautés vaudou en Haïti, j travaillé dans le Mio Bali, j travaillé dans Bois Prince, j travaillé dans Jacques Mel. Je ne appelle pas les gens par leur premier nom. Ce n pas respectueux. Et je sais ça non pas parce que je suis un chercheur, je sais ça parce que je suis Haitien.

Et je ne suis pas l de quelqu qui a 50 ans, ou même 40 ans. Je ne suis pas leur copain d je ne suis pas leur copain. Donc, en plus de l des titres comme Nga ou Mambo, si c approprié, je dirais Tonton ou Tintin ou Monsieur. Right. Those are cultural nuances that people who are from this culture will be very familiar with.

And that might even come naturally to us, you know. And so I think that there are some valuable perspectives that everybody can bring, you know. [00:03:00] And I also really think that it would be great for us to have more Haitian scholars of Vodou. And there are some that are up and coming, which I’m very, very excited about.

You know, there’s a new generation of Haitian Vodou scholars and Vodou scholar practitioners that is emerging. And we have more work to do. Thank you. Afudayi! Bila bila! Kongo! So, an kama seno, Professor Kira Malika Daniels, uh, Famjam Extraordinaire. No, miss your appeal. Can you talk about regleme, ritual order and its importance in voodoo ceremonies?

Yes, of course. So first of all, thank you so much for having me. Looking forward to the conversation. And the first thing that I would say is that règlements has different meanings in different Vodou communities, but what it always refers to is how things should be conducted. Ritualy speaking, in the context of Southern Vodou, and this [00:04:00] is really important because Southern Vodou and Northern Vodou have a lot of different variations.

There are a lot of different genealogies of Vodou equally valuable lineages, but different ways of manifesting devotion and pursuing practice and worship of the law of the spirits. So in the context of Règlement in the South in particular, when people are referring to Règlement, they’re talking about certain things that are, Ça peut inclure des prohibitions.

Ils parlent d séquence de choses qui doivent se passer dans un ordre particulier pour que la loi, la loi Kagé, soit contente. Et en plus, ils verront que vous gardez les choses dans une manière cérémoniale respectueuse. Donc, je vais donner un exemple. Dans le contexte de l à la loi pendant la service, la danse ou la fête, c -à -dire une cérémonie, c -à -dire une cérémonie, There is a particular order in which you will call the spirits.

You don’t just call them out of any which way, haphazardly or, you know, [00:05:00] randomly. You start with a particular sequence. So that means that you’re starting with spirits like Avadra, Grand Chemin. Everybody knows that Legba. est, vous savez, le premier, mais en fait, très intéressant, il y a quelques esprits dont vous appelez même avant l qui inclut le sacré tambour pourquoi est -ce important c important parce que en suivant la prière guinée qui ouvre la plupart des cérémonies de voodoo une série de prières catholiques récitées en tant que français et en créole en suivant les tambours can begin and for the drums to begin you have to salute who is the sacred drum itself and also the spirit of the sacred drum and then after you’ve called you can sing to you know who are like the openers of the roads and then you arrive at like back following like back you go to my Following Maasa, you go to Papa Loko, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.[00:06:00]

And so there’s a whole sequence of things. And part of the reason that that is important is because each family might do things a little differently, but each family, meaning spiritual family, each temple will have its own way of conducting reglema. So people would generally agree in the Southern lineage of Vodou that you start with the Gada spirits, then you move to Juba spirits, then you move to Nago spirits, you see.

And so the research that I did about the Nashon was really fascinating to me because it wasn’t just something that was theoretical, I realized. It has meaning and ways in which you can see that being manifested. Dans la cérémonie à travers le règlement. Le règlement peut aussi signifier des prohibitions rituelles.

Donc, par exemple, quand les gens sont initiés lors des rites de conso, qui est l il y a certaines choses que les gens peuvent et ne peuvent pas faire. Vous n pas censé vous engager dans l sexuelle, par exemple, [00:07:00] quand vous travaillez pour préparer les gens à leur initiation. Vous abstenez de cela, c vrai?

Il y a, vous savez, Règlement que les gens suivent après qu ont traversé l de Kanzo dans la lignée du sud, vous savez, vous ne pouvez pas boire de l vous ne pouvez pas manger du poivre, vous ne pouvez pas manger, vous savez ce que je veux dire, donc il y a toutes ces différentes façons dans lesquelles différentes lignées de famille et différentes lignées de temple se conduiront et le règlement réfère à la séquence de rituels des choses et la façon de conduire soi -même et la communauté.

I mean, I think that that’s something that’s not unique to voodoo. That’s religions all over the world, right? I mean, people are very familiar with the way, you know, the Catholic rituals go, there’s a sequence, there’s an order, there’s how things are done. And at a certain point, you might be able to say, Oh, well, we do these things, you know, we offer, for instance, you might say, we offer, you know, champagne to metagui, the captain of the seas, because he likes champagne.

And we offer, you [00:08:00] know, um, conceivable to this spirit and we offer clear a to this way because they like them that’s what they prefer but at a certain point when you keep asking that question the answer is just going to be its tradition c quand ça sans cet autre effet ou bien c quand ça comme on y a des faits right and so I think that that’s something that’s true of all world religions across the world that there’s a way in which people establish themselves that doesn’t mean that these traditions can’t be innovated upon and I think that that’s probably one of the primary differences with a lot of African and African diaspora religions.

This is something that certain scholars refer to like john Thornton as continuous revelation, and this is a very fancy way of saying that Our code of ritual conduct is not set entirely in stone, whereas traditions of the book, like the Bible for Christianity, the Quran for Islam, um, Hasidic texts, or, [00:09:00] you know, the Torah for Jewish communities, they indicate that there’s a certain way that things must be done, and people typically will say, You know, you can’t divert from that path.

Vodou, Congo religions, Yoruba traditions, it’s not that we have nothing written down, but historically, these have been oral traditions. And so, at times, things may change, but by and large, we adhere to traditions because se konsagra monyo te fel. You mentioned, uh, the difference between nation and nation.

Am I being too extra with the nasal there? No, that’s a very important distinction. Yeah, I think so. I’m going to say that I really appreciated the distinction because I had written this whole essay as nation, nation, nation, nation. And, you know, I will be very transparent here. I am of Haitian descent. Um, I am a heritage [00:10:00] speaker, but I also studied Haitian Creole in school because I wanted to learn how to write it and to read it.

And I didn’t always speak Creole. You know, my mother is Haitian. My father is African American. So it’s something that I learned in a formal context as well. And, um, I knew that the word for country or nation was nation, N -A -S -Y -O -N, and I shared the essay, because I think this is really important, with elders in the field, with my spiritual mother, um, and also with elders such as Ongar Jean Daniel Lafontaine, Ongar Giardès Fleurin, and, um, C un Gaujean Daniel qui a dit, vous savez, nous devons être clairs qu y a une distinction entre l géopolitique, Nation, et les nations spirituelles, Nation, et c très illuminant parce que quand j confié avec plusieurs autres, ils ont absolument agi, ils ont dit, oh oui, certainement, et je veux dire les pratiquants ainsi que les écrivains, comme oui, il y a une [00:11:00] différence et je pense qu y a des raisons Of a number.

I think that there are a number of different reasons as to why this might be including the fact on a cosmological level when spirits come in ceremony. One of the ways that often they can be distinguished is because they come speaking differently than humans do. They often will come speaking langage, which is a coded ritual language.

Of West African origins, a blend of different West African languages, some of whose meaning we have forgotten, some of whose meanings we still know, um, but they also come speaking in a very nasal fashion. The spirits come speaking in a very nasally fashion. This is especially true of the Gede Nation or family of spirits.

Y a pas les poissons avec yon voix très nasal, right? And that’s one way of distinguishing. You know, spirit voice from human [00:12:00] voice. Not all the spirits speak in exactly the same fashion, but many spirits come speaking with more of a nasal sound, especially the gay day spirits, the etymology of the word voodoo.

I asked one of my, uh, my cousins. She, she’s a mumbo. And she told me like, she just calls it more savvy. She’s like, she was really it at as voodoo. What’s the, what’s the origin of, of that word. It’s not just a scholarly word is it? No, it’s not just a scholarly word. Voodoo comes from the Fongbay term Vodun and the Fongbay language is spoken in current day Benin.

And it comes from the Vodun tradition of Benin and of the ancient kingdom of Dahomey, where there were multiple different ethnic groups, religious Um, Alada peoples, and Fon peoples, and Dahomean peoples, all of Umahi peoples in the north, and all of these different nations of people. And I [00:13:00] really encourage us to think about the importance of language when we refer to African peoples.

I don’t use the term tribes. It’s a deeply racist term, and mostly it’s only used to refer to black and brown peoples, but we had our own nations. We had our own geopolitical states. So these different ethnic groups, these different nations coming from the kingdom of Dahomey practiced a tradition known as Vodun.

Now, once upon a time, it wasn’t called Vodun, but Vodun was the term that referred to the spirit. So the way that we use the term loi. translated to English in Haitian Voodoo to refer to the spirits or the way that Yoruba practitioners use the term orisha. The Dahomian peoples referred to their spirits as Vodoon.

So it means spirit. And there are some people who have broken that etymology down even further to say that Um is the term for spirit. Um, and you can see this because a lot of the terms that we have remembered and continue to use today are either the [00:14:00] same terms from Fongbe or slight alterations. So all of those words in Vodou that start with those um, like um gun, Honto, um, quand on parle de l il y a beaucoup de termes que nous pouvons toujours tracer aujourd au Fongbe et beaucoup d eux ont ce prefix honto, qui signifie esprit, et cela vient du terme Vodun lui -même.

Maintenant, je serais d avec votre cousin en notant que beaucoup de Haitiens et beaucoup de Vodouïs ne disent pas I am a voodoo. That’s what they would say in the South and the term in the North that people more often uses Vodoo V. But many people don’t say that. They say most every law, most every day.

Why I am one who serves the spirits. That’s a very common refrain. Um, it doesn’t mean that people don’t recognize new language. I think now people are starting to, I think devotees in Haiti are starting to use Voodoo V a little bit more. Um, but many, many, many people who are devotees. [00:15:00] Typically, je sais moi c vie, c vie de l So, vous de vie is the plural, right?

For vous de vie, in the sense, right? No, they’re two different. No, they’re actually two different, um, etymologies. So, vie, um, is also fondée and it comes from small. It means small. So, vous de vie is like plural. The small one of the spirits, meaning like child of the spirits, but so we’ll do V is typically the term that people use in the north to refer to themselves as devotees.

Vodoo V means the same thing as what do we saw in the sense that what we saw is the way that devotees would refer to themselves in the south. But again, many people would just say. Um, and why is that? That’s because of the philosophy of many African religions, which is that religion is not something that is separate from everyday life.

Religion doesn’t exist in this little pocket or this little corner of the house. It is the whole experience. And so, I think that that is reflected when people say, Mwase bilwa, it’s just what I [00:16:00] do. It’s, it’s when people say, oh, vodou is not a religion, it’s a way of life. I say, well, it’s both. You know, and I think that the reason that people push back against that, um, notion of voodoo being a religion is because they associate religion with very formal doctrine and biblical texts and religion has to only look this way.

But I use Charles Long’s definition of religion, which I think is very illuminating. He says religion. I love that because it allows us to understand religion as both faith and practice, as both belief and ritual. And so if it’s about how we orient ourselves in the world, then a way of life includes that and can also be religion.

So Vodou for me is definitely a religion. And it is a way of life numerology and Haitian voodoo. What’s the significance of the number 21? Um, if I may just add one more thing, I think one thing that’s [00:17:00] really helpful when I talk to my students to an identifying the origins of the term voodoo versus voodoo versus voodoo.

I always tell them voodoo is Hollywood. Voodoo is Hollywood. It’s the zombies. It’s the dolls. It’s not the tradition that we’re talking about. When we’re talking about voodoo in Haiti, it’s V -O -D -O -U. Voodoo. And I think that, um, that’s important because it allows us to differentiate the actual lived experience of people versus the sort of Hollywood imaginaries.

So, okay, please, um, pose your question again. Numerology. Right. With regards to 21, I think that, um, Again, many different societies, many different world traditions believe that different numbers play different functions and different roles. Three seems to be a very powerful mystic number in a lot of different societies.

Of course, we know in Christianity, three refers to the Holy Trinity, the three wise men. Father, the Son, the Holy Ghost. Um, in Haitian Vodou, when I ask about the number three, people will [00:18:00] typically say, Oh, Father, Son, Holy Ghost. Some people will also say it’s the three graces. Um, so I think that’s faith, charity, and hope, if I’m not mistaken.

I could be wrong about that. I wasn’t a good Catholic kid. So I could be wrong. But I, I know that three carries an important number. Uh, uh, numerological quality because of its connection to Christianity, seven also is a considered a very mystic number. And then, you know, when you think about numbers in terms of their manifestations in the real world, seven is regarded, first of all, it’s a prime number.

So a lot of times prime numbers are regarded very highly in different societies. Um, But in addition to that, like if you were to take, you know, dominoes, for instance, since, you know, size, the way that seven is portrayed is, you know, three sets of dots facing each other, mirroring each other with one dot up high, it almost looks like a house.

Mm hmm. You see what I’m saying? It almost looks like a [00:19:00] structure. So there’s a way in which seven represents wholeness or completeness as well. So 21 is three times seven. There is one more thing I want to talk about with, at least with regards to numbers. So many people, when they talk about how many lua there are, we’ll say that there are 101 spirits.

Or 401 spirits, and that number is really significant for a few different reasons because in Yoruba cosmology of the Ifa tradition or the Isheshe tradition of southwestern Nigeria understands that there are 401 spirits, 401 orisha. And they say specifically that there are 200 destructive spirits. and 200 creative spirits, meaning there’s a balance and that plus one is very, very important.

So there are scholars such as Fulaya Wood who have talked about this, um, uh, Wande Abimbola’s son, Gola Abimbola has also discussed the importance of this plus [00:20:00] one principle, means that it’s ad infinitum, More spirits can also can always reveal themselves. This goes back to the dimension of continuous revelation, that the spirits can always come and manifest or bring new messages to people and bring new messages to religious devotees.

And so the whether it’s 101 or whether it’s 401, There’s always going to be a signaling of that plus one principle indicating that Mordewa can reveal themselves to us. This is the case for instance with Dessalines, right? And Boukman historically played very important roles in the Haitian fight for freedom and they have become deified.

You know, and so they became inducted, if you will, into the voodoo pantheon and their songs for a bookman, you know, there are ways of acknowledging that that principle. So I also think that 21 might be connected to that idea of the plus one principle. It’s not 20, which is a nice round number. It’s not 30.

It’s 21. I think that part of that [00:21:00] is in introducing or continuing with that notion of the plus one principle. A little bird. You told me you have a photographic memory. Is that true? That’s really funny. I’d be very curious to know who said that. I don’t think I have a photographic memory, but I study art.

So I, I, I would like to say that I have a sharp eye, but I don’t think I have a photographic memory. Oh, okay. Okay. Well, that goes my whole question because I was going to ask you to write off. All 21 nations. Oh, but you see that’s a good exercise because you can’t because there are different people who have different lists of 21 nations, right?

And so not everybody agrees on them. But what I will say is that was one of the things that really fascinated me about this research study is most people whom I spoke with couldn’t list all 21 because First of all, 21 is a lot to remember off the top of one’s head. But in addition to that, because not everybody agrees.

Some people, for instance, don’t say that Gede is its own nation. [00:22:00] They say that it’s actually like a family. And then, there are many people who agree that Gede spirits are related to Bawon spirits, but they’re not exactly the same. Some people say you have to think about it. I believe this is true of Gachel Beauvoir Dominique, the great late anthropologist and voodoo priestess who argued that was its own entity.

There are others who say that Makaya is an initiatory society. Um, so it would be difficult to list all 21 because not everybody agrees on them. I mean, I would say people agree on, like, maybe seven or eight. You know, people would agree on Gada, Juba, Nagu. For the most part, Gede, Petwo, many people would say Petwo -Congo can go together.

And then after that, it starts to be tied to your lineage and your temple, which other nations are included. You just mentioned, uh, Lachelle, Beauvoir, Dominique. What’s the role, uh, and function of Ati and Vodou? Uh, [00:23:00] while you were at it, talk about Ati, Max, Beauvoir. the father of Russia how how instrumental are their works daughter and father in the study of asian voodoo like you well their work is very very important and I would say foundational and I wish that more of us sighted them I know that even myself, I have more to read of Beauvoir Dominique’s work.

I have more to read of Beauvoir’s work. I don’t want to suggest that I’ve been exhaustive in my readings. I know that part of it is language access. Um, you know, many of their works were written in French. Um, but I think that that it behooves us to engage with their work because they had some very So, that’s why I’m going to finish my reading and then I’m going to be back with a new So, thank you so much for listening and I will see you next time!

Bye! Bye! Sous -titres réalisés para la communauté d .org Contributions to make as scholar practitioners and, you know, Haitian voodoo. I think that there are all different types of intellectuals. I think many mobile and are some of the wisest people that I’ve ever met, you know, from their knowledge of pharmacology to their familiarity with navigating [00:24:00] mediating.

social relationships, providing counsel for devotees, orchestrating enormous ceremonies and FETs. I mean, they’re some of the wisest and most knowledgeable people I know, and they haven’t necessarily all gotten PhDs, but they’re organic intellectuals. So knowledge doesn’t always come from a classroom and the classroom can be in multiple places.

It can be in the forest. It can be in the temple. Um, and in addition to that, there is something quite remarkable about the fact that we actually move while Dominique and her father Max Bovois were both scholar practitioners who had studied history culture. I mean, I’d see Max Bovois was a biochemist.

That’s remarkable because he understood not only the Transcription by ESO. Translation by role of plants on a religious level, but on a chemical level, you know, what types of properties could be activated through medicinal plant baths and through the ingestion of leaves and things of this nature. Um, I think that, you [00:25:00] know, the role of Atsi is a word.

It’s etymology can help us understand the role that it is aimed to play in Haitian Vodou today. So Ati, people are suggesting, scholars are suggesting that Ati comes from the notion of the tree being a site lipozoa. Not only a residence of the spirits, but also, um, a pillar of support for the community.

And there are spirits, the spirit, or the vodun of Beni known as Iroko is a spirit of a great tree, a magisterial tree. And some suggest that it’s the cottonwood silk tree, which is for us in Vodou, the mapu. And so Iroko became for us loko. But the term Atsi, I believe in one of these languages, perhaps it’s Sfongbe, refers to great tree.

And so that was what the role [00:26:00] was supposed to represent for us. And you know, people have colloquially called it like, Oh, the Atsi is the Pope of Haitian Vodou. And in a way, you know, he was supposed to be a unifying force. But again, I will mention that I think it’s really important that we recognize that, largely speaking, Vodou is a decentralized religion, like many other African and African diaspora religions.

So it’s not as if one person could make a decree that every other temple would follow, because we all have our own different genealogies within these traditions. And different families practice differently than Asogui lineages, you know, the, the, the… lineage of Asogwe is its own very particular thing. So he comes from the Asogwe lineage, um, and he had two daughters.

I believe the entire family was initiated and Gachara Bovoie -Dominique really was, I think, ready to carry the baton, if you will, um, with her scholarship. She also had done some really important work on, so he had done really important, you know, publications with Publishing Puyegine, which [00:27:00] very few people had seen in written format before he had published it outside of their own personal temple, you know, and that some people said that that was brave.

Some people said that that was not something that was wise because you shouldn’t be sharing something so sacred and particular to one temple with a larger audience. But I think that that was the role that he wanted to play. You know, my mother, who. Her name is Claudine Michel, but she grew up in Haiti and she said she always remembered in the 1970s, you know, Hugo Max Beauvoir would be interviewed on television and they said, And he replied, and she was floored, you know, that somebody with a PhD in biochemistry would reply that their profession or that your career is voodoo priest.

It made quite an impression on her, you know, and I think a generation, several generations of people. Now, Dominique, in addition to her really important work. Connecting and identifying and studying [00:28:00] Taino lineages and roots of Haitian Vodou. She also did some really fascinating work on Bizango, the initiatory society.

And I actually remember I had, you know, the privilege to interview them. And I remember one conversation with Clashé Bouvoie -Douinique where she said, you know, you need to do some work on Bizango. And I was like, ah, c un travail qui est vraiment important, oui. But it, I felt like there was still so much work to be done on Vodou itself in terms of demystifying it and making sure that people understand this is not a demonic tradition.

I feel like we have a ways to go with Vodou first before I felt like I would be comfortable doing work on an initiatory society such as Bizan -Gol. But I do hope that there are more Haitian scholars who will begin doing that work on initiatory societies because it’s deeply important. They have.

Profound connections to voodoo, but they are not the same thing. Let’s dive a little deep, but not too much into Into the sort of scaffolding is kind of more fluid than [00:29:00] solid, right? It will regionally vary, but give us a sort of a basic understanding of how it’s structured. What is the shape of the pantheon?

So we have The High Creator God, who is known by many names. The most common name that I’m familiar with is Bon Dieu, which is from the French, Good God. Um, there are others who indicate that the name of Bon Dieu is Olorun, which is quite profound because Olorun, Oluwam is the name of or Olodumare is the name of the high god in the Ifa tradition or the Ixéxé tradition of Nigeria.

So again, there are these linkages and these connections that we can make directly to specific ethnic lineages and religious traditions on the continent. So Oluwum coming from, uh, Olodumare and in the Cuban tradition, the high god is known as Olorun. and Underneath the High Creator God who put the world into [00:30:00] motion and who, I would say, is not gendered.

Many people use the term he, but as we know in Haitian Creole, there is no gender. On ne dit pas qu ou elle est identifié par la gendre, on dit juste que c lui. Donc, je ne pense pas que le High God est gendré. En dessous, mon Dieu, sont les esprits, les loyaux, qui ont de nombreux noms. Ils peuvent être appelés mystérieux, les mystères, lesquels j Ils peuvent être appelés invisibles, les invisibles.

Ils peuvent être appelés, dans le Nord, en particulier, singes. Of course, we can imagine that this comes from the introduction of Catholicism, where we understood that there were angels who do the work of God. So underneath the High Creator God, who frankly is very occupied with high order functions, doesn’t really have time for the everyday realities of humans.

And that’s what the Loa are for. One can hold up different domains. Some live in the sky, some live in the sea, some live in the forest, some live in caves. [00:31:00] And they take multiple forms. By and large, people would say that they have, you know, an ephemeral quality, but they can manifest in human mediums, or they can manifest in a tree, or in a rock, or in a wave, or in a person.

There are also, after that, You know, uh, realm of the spirits, meaning the loi, there are the ancestors and the ancestors come in a few different forms. There are those whose names we know and we remember our grandmothers who have passed our great grandfathers who have passed our aunts, our uncles, our cousins.

But there are those whose names we do not know who are far, far, far back in our genealogy. So for those of you who are doing the 23 and me’s, You know, who are finding out that you may have had ancestors who come from this place or that place. You know, these are the ancestors who really, and Maya Deren says this, I really like this language.

The ancestor at a certain point becomes a principle, right? And no longer is an individual person whom you knew and who knew you. It [00:32:00] is now a sort of concept. Um, they become abstracted. So a lot of times in La prière Guinée, people will say, um, you know, we don’t have the prayer for unknown ancestors. Les noms, les noms desquels nous savons et les noms desquels nous ne savons pas.

Et puis, il y a les humains. Donc, nous avons Bon Dieu ou Ologum. Nous avons Lwayo. Les mystères, Mystèyo. Et les ancêtres, lesquels comprennent Evesibio. Donc, les esprits et les ancêtres travaillent main dans la main. And then you have humans and in the human realm, there are animals, there are plants, all of them have a sort of divine energy that connects all of us together.

Humans are not regarded as necessarily being more important than animals. But we have free will and we have agency. And so we pray to Saint -Sétu, we pray to the loi for guidance, for direction. And we might also pray to bon Dieu. We might also pray to Oluwum. [00:33:00] Um, but typically for everyday matters, if you’re asking for healing, if you’re asking for strength, if you’re asking for courage, if you’re asking for hope, if you’re asking for everyday things of human experience, you would pray to the loi and to the Saint -Sétu.

Excellent, excellent. So where do the Catholic priests or Catholic saints fit into this pantheon? Where do they, where do the practitioners put them? Great question. The Catholic saints have been associated with different lots. And the different divine energies. Now, the term that people often use to refer to Vodou and to other Caribbean religions is syncretic.

These are syncretic traditions. I really don’t like using that term to refer to these traditions because, again, just like the term tribe, syncretic is only used to refer to basically black and brown people’s religions. As if Christianity, Islam, Judaism were not also blended traditions. I mean, in fact, scholars indicate that Jesus was [00:34:00] probably born in August, but the reason that they chose December 25th as the date of Jesus’ birthday is because the Romans, who were trying to convert the kingdom at a certain point in the 4th century, realized, hmm, the winter solstice is a really big holiday for these Greek quote -unquote pagans.

And so if we align it at the same time with the winter solstice festival, then we’re more likely to be able to convert more people to Christianity. So to me, that’s an example of a syncretic faith. So if we talk about all world religions as syncretic, no problem. But if you’re gonna just talk about African -derived religions, no.

So I call them blended religions. One of the things that we have to understand, of course, is that Christianity was imposed upon African descendants in the Americas. There’s no doubt about it. And Africans, by and large, and African descendants were forbidden from practicing African religions. Now there is an important historical nuance that we have to incorporate here, and that refers to, or that must incorporate our understanding of the Congo Kingdom.[00:35:00]

And I promise I’m going somewhere there with this, Patrick, don’t think I’ve lost my train of thought. Oh no, no, you’re good. You have photographic memory, remember? Right, supposedly, I better live up to that. In 1486, the Portuguese arrived in what is the Kingdom of Congo. Today, this is the regions of Gabon, the Republic of Congo, the Democratic Republic of Congo, and Angola.

There is a sliver about the size of California in these coastal regions that was known as the Congo Kingdom. And… The king at the time who met. I’m sorry. And that’s Congo with a K. Sorry. That’s Congo with a K. That’s absolutely correct. Yeah, there was no C in the orthography. Yes, exactly. So Congo Kingdom, they were met at the time by King Nzinga Angku and King Nzinga Angku Um.

Each of the African nationals Converts to Catholicism. And so, the Portuguese brought More missionaries, Capuchin missionaries in particular, [00:36:00] And in 1491, King Nzinga Ayn Kul converts to Catholicism. He becomes baptized as King Shwau the first. So this is a year before Columbus arrives At the Americas To cause all the devastation that he did.

And, um, You have a Congo king On the African continent Converting to Catholicism. Now, we know that Christianity has a very long legacy in Egypt and in Ethiopia, and in fact, Ethiopia is like the second nation to become Christian in the world, and Africans were Christian before Europeans, you know, the King Ezana converts his Aksum kingdom in Ethiopia to Christianity, and they became Ethiopian Orthodox Christians in the fourth century before our Constantine converts Rome to Christianity, but on the western side of the continent, you have a very early introduction to Christianity as well.

So in 1491, King Joao I becomes baptized. Now here’s the part that they don’t tell you. He reverts back to indigenous religion. He tries it on for a little while. He says, I don’t like this. I’m going back to my [00:37:00] ancestral religion, but he has two sons. who battle over the kingdom when he died one son was for indigenous religion one son was for catholicism and the son who had converted to catholicism and wanted to convert the kingdom won the battle for the throne so king afonso the first konverte the kingdom of congo to catholicism as a whole now it’s really important to recognize that this would be an africanizing of christianity a congo -ization if you will of catholicism that takes place so people were becoming baptized they would do what’s called kudiamungwa Which means to eat salt, but it’s important to know that parts of these baptisms were also tied to indigenous religion.

People would eat salt because they understood it as a way to ward off negative evil forces or negative spirits. They would become baptized because the simbi, which is the name for spirits, [00:38:00] it’s the equivalent of loa or orisha, the basimbi in the plural, would initiate you in the waters so they were engaged in this catholicism but they were simultaneously engaging with their ancestral indigenous religion of congo as well why is that important that’s important because that means that congo as a region has been catholic for 500 years but it has definitely been an africanized catholicism and this is also important because the About 60 to 70 percent of those who were fighting during the Revolutionary War.

And at the time that the Revolutionary War broke out in Haiti in 1791, about 60 to 70 percent of those enslaved were African -born. 60 to 70 percent of them were African -born. And of those, roughly 60 to 70 percent were coming from Central Africa. And that’s out of, excuse me, that’s out of about 500.

thousand [00:39:00] enslaved coming if i remember correctly right by 1791 yeah so i and out of that 60 70 percent of them came from from that region yep and it’s important to note that different regions had different um population Uh, demographics. So for instance, earlier on, we had more Senegambians who were brought at different periods of historical, uh, junctures.

You had more people coming from Yoruba land, more people coming from the Gambia, you know, so different times, but at the time of the Haitian revolution, 60 to 70 percent of those born on the continent were coming from Central Africa. And many of them were coming from Congo kingdom or the neighboring Ndongo kingdom.

So I raised that. Why? Because. From so early on, yes, it is important that we recognize the devastating colonial realities of imposing Catholicism on African descendants. But there was also a large population who would have already been used to an African Catholicism. And in [00:40:00] fact, King Afonso I, right in the final battle that he fights against his brother, he says that a vision came to him.

And the vision was that. Saint George appeared, or excuse me, Saint James, that’s important, Saint James appeared to him in a vision, whom we know as Saint Jacques, who is associated with Ogou, and the Virgin Mary, whom we know has many manifestations, as the Auxilie Fouet d as the Auxilie Dantois, as the Auxilie Chez Rouge, and so that’s important because, While it is true that Africans did have to hide their spirits behind the Catholic saints, not all Africans were being introduced to Christianity and to Catholicism for the first time in the Americas.

Congolese citizens would have already been familiar with the saints and would have understood them as being Africanized themselves. I’ll give that historical context. Okay, I’ll tell one more story and you can decide how much of it you’re going to put in this podcast. Oh, please, you tell all of it. And if you could talk about Beatrice, was it Beatrice?

[00:41:00] Oh, you see, that’s a perfect segue. That’s exactly who I was going to mention right now. Look at you, Patrick, you have done your homework. I could listen to you all day. Oh, very kind. So I’m so glad you mentioned that because that’s actually, again, a really important part of understanding Transcribed by https://otter .ai Who was coming to Saint -Domingue during this period.

So in the late 1690s, probably in 1684 or 1686, a woman was born named Kimpavita. She was initiated as a healer and as a priestess. The term that they used at the time in that region was Nganga Marinda. And Nganga means healer. Nganga means healer and typically diviner. When you say, for instance, Nganga Ngombo in the regions where I do my work in Congo, it means diviner.

So Nganga Merinda was somebody who could be a spiritual medium. So she was first involved in indigenous religion. When she became about 17, 18, she [00:42:00] fell ill with a horrible, horrible, horrible ailment. She became bedridden. And during that time, she experienced a vision. And… The vision was of St. Anthony who came to her and shared that she would be healed.

It was him who would heal her and he would come to her through what we know as ritual mountings or visitations to spread the word of peace because the Kongo Kingdom at the time was divided and was experiencing deep conflict. political conflicts and civil war. He would come to usher in peace and to provide healing to the citizens of Congo.

She was healed. She converted to Catholicism. And so Kimpa Vita became baptized as Donna Beatrice. Donna Beatrice became a magnificent and powerful healer. She traveled all over the world. all over the Congo kingdom on foot [00:43:00] trying to negotiate peace deals between warring political factions. She was successful in some places, not as successful in other places, and she was a great healer.

She healed like hundreds of people who were suffering from this condition or this. She was kind of like a female Jesus, you know, and in fact, as part of her Proselytizing, if you will, as part of her message to convey to people, she explained that she was mounted by St. Anthony, that she was an incarnation of St.

Anthony, and she explained, this is a part that I love, God was black, Mary was black, Jesus was black, and guess what? Bethlehem was Mbanza Congo, the capital of the Congo kingdom. This is what we’re referring to when we’re talking about the Africanization of Catholicism. And, She had disciples who worked alongside her, but the story, the narrative that she explained was that I am continually mounted by St.

Anthony. [00:44:00] One of her and her disciples became physically close, I should say emotionally close, and then physically close followed. They knew each other in the biblical way, as we might say. She became pregnant. Several of the warring political leaders used this as an excuse to attack her. They had already decided that she was a political threat because she was trying to unite the kingdom.

And many of the political leaders at the time who were part of these warring factions wanted to have their own jurisdictions and their own kingdoms. So it was not in their best interest to have the Congo kingdom united again. At this time the The kingdom of Congo is being ravaged by European slave traders who are coming and who are taking advantage and manipulating these warring political factions to obtain more enslaved peoples to bring to the Americas.

This is the Portuguese and the French and the Congo kingdom and. She’s a political threat and so they use the fact that she became [00:45:00] pregnant as a way of trying to debunk her narrative as I am an incarnation of St. Anthony to say, well, St. Anthony is a male saint and a saint wouldn’t be having carnal relations.

And so they took her as a pregnant, you know, woman who was incarnating St. Anthony and her disciple partner and burned them at the stake. This was in 1701 or 1702, something like this, the first few years of the 1700s. Now all of those who had devoted themselves to following the path of Kimpa Vita, now known as Donna Beatrice, called themselves Antonians.

They regarded themselves as Congolese and as Catholics. Many, now we know that so many of those who were African born at the time of the Haitian revolution were coming from Congo Kingdom. So we can imagine that many of them were very likely to have been Antonians, right? So I say all of this to say, like, I think that it’s very possible that one of the reasons that Saint -Jacques -Majeur is such a major Catholic presence [00:46:00] in Haiti, whom we associate with Ogu, is because from the beginning.

Almost 500 years ago, St. Jacques as St. James played such a prominent role in the Congo kingdom. I don’t think that’s the only reason, don’t get me wrong, but it is to suggest that the alli the alliances or the associations that the Catholic saints have with Vodou spirits who, let me be clear, are African spirits.

It is not something that was exclusively done, it was, this wasn’t a top -down approach. This wasn’t the church who said, ah, well, you know, that, um, that St. George of ours, he seems an awful lot like your ogu, and so you should connect them. No, this was a bottom -up approach of cosmological infrastructure. If you will, of people saying, these depictions of these saints, this mother Mary, or this Saint Sebastian is a really wonderful example because he is portrayed in the chromolithographs as you know, a saint who became a martyr and who’s riddled with arrows tied to a tree.

So he became associated with [00:47:00] Gamboa, who is a great forest mystic healer, who is Associated and depicted as being connected to and even having limbs that are branches, a trunk, you know, that is his torso and then a heart shaped face. So the iconography at times is very aligned with the representations of these saints.

And I really want to make clear that that is something that. African descendants had to do because they were forced to practice Catholicism, but also that, especially for Central Africans and Congolese citizens, they would have already been used to making those connections between their indigenous spirits, their Basimbi, or their Orisha, or their Vodun, and that they started doing with these, uh, Catholic saints that they were being introduced to in the Americas.

So let’s go over the The four, you call them the four Potomita nation. Yes. Raida, Nago, Petro -Congo, and Gede. How did you come to the conclusion [00:48:00] that these are in fact, the four, uh, spiritual pillars in Haitian voodoo. Is that a scholarly classification? Or did you derive that from from your interactions with the practitioners or studying the practitioners overall?

Both, both. And I think that that’s how all good research should be done. You know, this is, yeah, it’s an argument that I’m making. It’s an assertion. It’s an assertion that I’m putting forth, but it’s based off of many years of research, many conversations and interviews The reason that I call them the Potomitan is because while there are some houses for whom Juba nations, for instance, may play a more prominent role, other houses for whom Senegal nations might play a more prominent role, by and large, most Vodou temples of the southern lineage, You would be hard -pressed to go to a fete or a ceremony where these four nations are not being invoked.

It would be very [00:49:00] difficult to attend a fete and to see these four nations not being invoked. Even if not every single one of the 21 nations is being called, you will still be invoked. Definitely hear these four nations being called. So that’s how I identified him as the Potomitan. But if I’m really, you know, if we’re keeping in line with this language that I like that you’ve introduced for us of superstructure or the structure, I would say that these are like the four biggest masts, the largest Potomitan, and then there are other smaller Potomitan because many Vodou lineages would also Absolutely call Juba.

You have to call Kuznets -Aka. Like, I don’t know very many southern houses where you could not call Kuznets -Aka, you know, but I don’t know very many temples where they always call Senegal nations, for instance, or they also call Wongol nations. And of course here we can think about the sound where these nations originating from Senegal.

Senegal and one goal coming from Angola and what’s really interesting there is like I’ve, I’ve read and it’s very hard to find any information about the Senegal nation. This is something I’d really like to do more research on, [00:50:00] but my research has indicated that those who come as Senegal spirits purportedly speak a language that sounds like Arabic.

They use salutations that sound like assalamu alaikum, assalamu alaikum, which is peace be upon you and to you may peace be upon you, which is the greeting and the response that you give to Muslim brothers, sisters, and siblings. And then in addition to that, that they refuse to eat pork. Now we know, tut aisi nge me po, tut aisi nge me guyu.

So if you have spirits who are coming who are not eating pork, That’s quite significant. It stands out. Of course, we understand that Muslims do not eat pork, um, as part of their devotion, as part of their prohibitions, as part of their leglima, we could say. Um, and it’s also said that they perform what looks like a bowing gesture of prayer.

In a particular direction, which looks like Salat, the five daily prayers that Muslims will engage in throughout the day facing Mecca. And so these different [00:51:00] nations, I think, could play different supporting roles, depending on the temple and the location and the Vodou genealogy that each spiritual family has.

But I would say that these four in southern Vodou, you can’t have a ceremony without calling Ghada, Petro -Congo. On the Northern, uh, Northern Haiti practices and Southern Haiti practices, can you dive a little deeper into the, the contrast and differences that you saw that you laid out in the, in the article about just, just a few words, comparing contrasts?

You know, compare and contrast. And here I will say I’m not a scholar of Northern Vodou. I have done some research in the north. Um, but there are other scholars, including some up and coming scholars whose work I’m very excited about who are doing work in Northern, uh, Vodou temples. So in my understanding, Gwanaiv is a real base.

Um, suffering. Aw, don’t know. Um, it’s a pilgrimage [00:52:00] site. It is uh, a site of spiritual center. So this is something that you see very commonly in other world traditions. For instance, in the Yoruba tradition, it’s understood that Ilé Yife is the center of the world, the cosmological center of the world, you know, in the context of, um, uh, Christianity and Islam.

And to a certain extent, You know, or I should say Christianity and Judaism, and to a certain extent, Islam, Jerusalem is a sacred city center. Gwanaiv is a sacred city center for northern Vodouiza, and we can say for all Vodouiza, so for Vodouvi in the north. Why? Because there are several major pillar temples in or surrounding Gwanaiv.

The three most well -known Last two include Laku Sukri, sometimes known as Laku Sukri Danash, which is more Kongo based, more connected to the Kongo lineages of Vodou. In addition to Laku Sukri, there is Laku Bajo, which is more connected to [00:53:00] the Nago nation and to the Yodaba traditions of Nigeria, southwestern Nigeria.

et puis vous avez la cousse de noces qui est plus connectée à la gada et à l nation and the Nahomian lineages of Vodou. They all have their different origin stories. So for instance, La Koussouvenas, um, which lost its, um, spiritual leader. They’ve been looking to fill that role. The La Koussouvenas origin story, one of the origin stories is that there were, um, Nahomian soldiers who were conscripted to become part of the royal army pour le roi Henri Christophe au nord de la Haïtie et que certains d eux, les Dahoméens venant de Benin, ont apporté leur religion ancestrale avec eux et pendant les premières années 1800 et qu certains d eux, ont fondé la Coupe Souvenance comme une façon d les traditions de Vaudoune avec lesquelles ils étaient connus.

Donc, c une histoire d Il y a peut -être plus et chaque, vous savez, la coupe a son propre [00:54:00] nombre. Maintenant, je veux être très clair And there’s some exciting new scholars such as, um, Alexandria Saint -Élien, who are doing really exciting research in the North. And there are many others who have done research in the North as well.

Well, I shouldn’t say many others. That’s something that we need to work more on in the United States. There are more Haitian scholars in Haiti doing work in the North. We need more folks doing that work in, in the U .S. Um, but who explain that, um, It is not as if in Lakosukli, for instance, only Kongo spirits are honored, like Mama Chamba or, um, spirits like Lemba.

Um, there are other spirits who are honored as well, so Gede spirits may still be honored, Nago spirits, warrior nations may still be honored, but that that is a primary focus of the pantheon in each of those respective three lakos. And I’ll mention here that in the North, they don’t typically have the same Asogwe lineage.

They use the Kwakwa, which is a different ritual rattle. Now, in Haitian Vodou of the South, you have the Aso, which is used to salute [00:55:00] the Gada spirits, and then certain other spirits, uh, in certain families, like certain Nago spirits, and then the Kwakwa, or the Chacha. Which is also a secular musical instrument, but is used in a ritual context in Vodou, is used in the south to salute like the Pétou spirits, Bawon spirits, things of this nature.

And then in the north, it’s typically one ritual wattle that is used, which is the cha -cha or the kwa -kwa. So that’s another one. You know, initiation happens in these lakou, but it is not quite the same as the Asogwe lineage of the South, which is a very formal and hierarchical system of initiation. You know, there’s like entry level for un -si, so un, once again, coming from fongbe, meaning spirit, and si, meaning bride in fongbe.

So un -si is literally brides of the spirit, and that’s not gender specific. Any initiate is known as un -si. Now, we don’t know and typically say, oh, you become a wife of the spirit or a bride of the spirit, anymore. Onsi Onsi is entry level in the South. It means you’re initiated to a particular [00:56:00] house. And then there is, um, initiation at the priesthood level, which would be known as, um, if you’re doing Konzo, you would be, uh, initiated at the priesthood level.

There’s like that first level. And then the last level is Ougan or Mambo. Meaning that you have been trained in the rites of the rattle. You can conduct ceremony, you can conduct ritual, you can call the spirits, you can send spirits away, and you can start your own temple. When you’re initiated at the first priesthood level, which is known as supwe, it means that you’ve been trained in the ritual rattle.

Uh, language. You can serve the spirits. You can conduct some, but you cannot necessarily open your own temple when you have been initiated as Nga or Mabu, Aso Gwe. Typically, that means that in theory, not everybody should run out and start your own temple. You have a lot to learn when you’re initiated, right?

But in theory, you could one day start your own temple. Temple and your own initiations that’s differentiated in the north where there isn’t such a hierarchical system of initiation and many families just engage in, you know, [00:57:00] this is what my elders did. So this is what I do. You don’t have to be initiated at all.

It’s like, say, soccer gun with a fail. Take one. Get it. Do we get? Okay, my ass, uh, you know, kind of stay and we serve the spirits. We serve the law, but there isn’t necessarily needed a formal initiation. That’s how much of will do in the countryside functions. Um, and many other family lineages. mufudayi What does mafudayi mean?

Like, oh now that’s a great example of langage. That’s a fantastic example of ladge. I have no idea. I have no idea

So some people will say that that comes from like different and this is why langages so okay So if you’re interested in langage a good person for you to reach out to now, she’s young She’s young and she doesn’t have a book out. She’s a graduate student Sous -titres réalisés par la communauté d .org But she is, I mean, brilliant.

She’s a linguist, a linguistic anthropologist studying langage and she is studying African languages because she makes this [00:58:00] excellent argument. She’s my student, you know, transparency, but she’s brilliant. She’s at GSU and she’s applying to doctoral programs right now and she makes an argument like you can, it’s not like this is glossolalia.

That langage is just nonsense words. She says, no, they’re African words whose origin and whose meaning we’ve forgotten because of the trauma of slavery and because of 500 years. But if you study Fongbe, if you study Kikongo, if you study Yoruba, you can find the meanings of these terms, even if they’ve changed a little bit.

Like, for instance, another example is like Dogwe. Ou Dogwe san, Dogwe est la salutation de rituel et la bowing de rituel, la prostration que vous faites. C similaire au Yoruba, ils parlent de dobale. Donc si vous voyez un initiateur nigerien ou même les africains qui sont initiés dans la tradition, quand vous voyez quelqu saluer un ancien dans la tradition, ils font dobale.

Ils font cette salutation de rituel sur le sol. Nous avons un qui est similaire, il s Dogwe katfongbe. Like we [00:59:00] know where it comes from. That’s what that word means, but other ones we don’t know. So mafutayi, that’s, that’s some research that needs to be done. So Alexandra Saint -Élien. Your mentor slash advisor, Dr.

Malika Daniels, Kira Malika Daniels, said you would be the best person to ask. Do you know where my futari comes from? I do. Yeah, cause you know, that’s actually what my whole, basically my whole research is. Um, and that is the linguistic aspect of what we’re doing. For example, there is linguistic variation.

You hear some people say my foot. I, I, I, it’s actually a foot. I, and I is meaning earth. So it’s coming from the language of song beats. Um, the kingdom of down may where I is, is, um, I means earth. Um, and so when you’re saying, I, you’re basically giving a salutation to Waban yon salutation a [01:00:00] la terre, so you salue la terre.

Oh, wow. Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm. Okay. And what about the, the response? Uh, Bilo -Bilo, is it, is it Bilo -Bilo? No, Bila -Bila Kongo. So. Bila -Bila Kongo. Oh, so what’s Bila -Bila? Bila -Bila Kongo basically is great praises to, to the Kong, like great praises to the Kongo lineage. wow so it’s sometimes it changes okay yeah so it’s that whole call and response right it’s the whole call and response yes it’s the call and response and you’ve some linguists or if depending on what sources that you’re using they’ll have bilat which would be meaning to call or to honor but when you put it all together because it’s it’s very contextual actually very very contextual and you find that a lot of you’ll find that a lot of times and A langage, that the meaning changes based on the song, based on the national it’s coming from.

But, but yeah, Afuta wap salue la tete, to honor, to give praises [01:01:00] to, to the earth. And then Bila Bila Kongo, great praises to the Congo kings, to the Congo spirit. So do you find practitioners know the meaning of it, or is this just something they, they, they just say by tradition? Do you think they know the meaning behind it?

So actually that was one of my, my own research question is what are devotees understanding of the African heritage and linguistic connection? And you find that, I mean, some do and some they, they have more of a, what more of a, um, poetic meaning to it, but not the linguistic, like breaking down the words, the morphemes and looking at what does this morpheme mean?

What does this word mean? Thank you. It depends on who the practitioner, who the devotee is. But in my experience, a lot of people don’t have that direct one -to -one correlation, but they can give you more so of a poetic, a more contextual understanding.[01:02:00]

Mwane se mo ide so e pon pala wav la tonde. E ba o monde o, Mwano ki nola kwa, Mwa ma o na fesa amdi se, Gato a pongo. Pwede se mo yi dezo te frekite o kwa mon apesa sane Pwede se mo yi dezo mwapara wap la sane Pwede ba o mante o kwa me mwne ki nyo lakwa Kwa mon apesa mwise kwa sonu ye Ni Yaziwo, Malato, Yaziwo, Malato, Yaziwo, Ohele do ayokue, Yaziwo pope.

Yaziwo, Malato, [01:03:00] Yaziwo,

Yaziwo,

Omononuye,[01:04:00] [01:05:00]

Opewayo akwa,[01:06:00]

Onagami,[01:07:00] [01:08:00]

Obudogon, [01:09:00] [01:10:00] [01:11:00] [01:12:00] [01:13:00] Obudogon,